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#1 The Krackheads

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:10 PM

I haven't been to GF since before Christmas so yesterday afternoon we hiked the better part of Declue from the Roundhouse parking lot.

 

While the trail was in excellent shape for early March I was really disappointed in seeing so many ride arounds on technical features.  I don't know why this has occurred over the last 3 months.  There is no shame in walking an area you can't ride based on your skill set, Creating an alternate easier line around an object or section of area because it is easier is ch*&^n s&^t.  The 6 Flags side of Declue is going to turn into Chubb Trail version 2 if you don't stop.

 

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#2 seamonkey

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:48 PM

people say they want technical but i've learned the riding public says hell no to that!

 

on the far point of beulah where the 3 horsemen rocks are near the climbing turn, I always had the trail designed to slot through the rocks. Nope. Ride around and a foot of leaves covering the technical feature. Some large rocks on the newest part of beulah have been pried out and kicked off the trail as well.

 

 

All the designers can do is try to make a fun and interesting trail. Then the public gets to decide where the trail goes. That much I've learned over the years. Probably only a matter of time before someone fills the berm in because it's too steep or the alt rock drop line has a makeshift pallet so  you can roll down it safely ;-)

 

I'mma keep tryin' though. I think the new stretch of beulah will test the strength and stamina of even the best trail tamers.

 

keep it flowduro,

matt


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#3 95vtr250

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 11:07 AM

It's happening at Rock Hollow as well.  The only technical section on the trail has a ride around forming.  There are also rocks being removed to make lines faster and straighter.  Part of the trail evolution, unfortunately...and sometimes it's hard to fight because it makes the trail more fun to ride.  What do you do?


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#4 TenBeers

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

Something to experiment with more may be like what is present on Fossil Ridge.  The alternate line between the rocks is great, but you kind of have to know it is there.  The easy line already exists, so there is no reason to modify the technical line.  I know this is not possible everywhere, like the steep slopes of Zombie, but it could help preserve some of the techy features.

 

I have to admit that I sometimes go the Sally route if I am tired or just riding like a moron that day.  I don't make new ones and try to avoid them, but if they are there, sometimes . . .


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#5 Mark Grumke

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:07 PM

More Big Rocks! If I cant ride it I at least walk it and plan for my next attempt at it. Maybe people wanting to be super cool on that Strava thing move the rocks for speed?  



#6 The Krackheads

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:57 PM

I did my darndest to block off the 4 ride arounds on Declue-6 Flags side today pre rain. I just piled up a bunch of rocks in these areas because I now know riders hate riding over rocks.

XOXO
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Volunteers do not necessarily have the time; they just have the heart. ~Elizabeth Andrew

 

 

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#7 OffRoadAddict

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:47 PM

I am not even sure that all of these "Trail Modifications" are being done by other riders. Yesterday afternoon I went by Creve Coeur and tried to get a few laps in before the rain stopped me. If you are riding CW from the Go Ape building, shortly after you go across the gravel service road there used to be two rocks just to left side of the trail. This was the only rock feature on the entire 6 mile loop, well not anymore. Sometime in the last two weeks since I have ridden here it looks like someone took a mini excavator or track skid loader and pulled both of these rocks out and they are now laying about 10 feet off of the trail. I know it wasn't much of a challenge to ride over both of these rocks, but this was the only rock feature on the entire trail and there was a well established line just to the side of them if you didn't want to ride over them. Obviously this was done by St. Louis County Parks Service for some reason. Not sure why?   


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#8 Kit

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:04 PM

One thing I've noticed though, once I kill a ride around or cheat line, It stays dead. People don't generally tear it back out, so at least I don't feel like I'm fighting that type of a battle. 



#9 Kit

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 07:33 PM

The two line kills on the climbs were what I've been meaning to do for a while, awesome. I got this one today, after the monkey heads uphill, at the split to the radio

tower. 

 

unnamed.jpg



#10 Alane

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:07 AM

I have noticed the same thing lately at Creve Coeur and Bangert, and these are not even in very technical spots. As in small roots, or straightening out a curve. 



#11 Kit

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:48 PM

I have noticed the same thing lately at Creve Coeur and Bangert, and these are not even in very technical spots. As in small roots, or straightening out a curve. 

I blame the "smooths out the trail" marketing that bike companies have been using, people are being told that trails should feel smooth.



#12 Kit

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:56 PM

Something to experiment with more may be like what is present on Fossil Ridge.  The alternate line between the rocks is great, but you kind of have to know it is there.  The easy line already exists, so there is no reason to modify the technical line.  I know this is not possible everywhere, like the steep slopes of Zombie, but it could help preserve some of the techy features.

 

I have to admit that I sometimes go the Sally route if I am tired or just riding like a moron that day.  I don't make new ones and try to avoid them, but if they are there, sometimes . . .

That is my favorite part of FR, riding cw and going up that rock face. 



#13 Fahtrim

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:55 PM

To be fair it's not just "cheaters".  

 

Take Matson for example, that trail has had numerous more technical harder sections removed due to what I understand to be "can't maintain due to erosion".  This was done by trail teams.

 

I miss the roots at Matson on the curve on the way back out challenge, the latest reroute at Matson sissified the trail as well through the open field.  The last climb out to the picnic table if going clockwise used to be a lot steeper, if going counter clockwise the route after the banked switchback is now more gradual......see a pattern?

 

Lost Valley lost the dreaded "hill after the wooden bridge" years back and has also recently lost a milder more technical feature after the wet creek crossing with latest reroute, again to remove "washed out" sections.

 

I get it, we don't want the trail washed out..but some of it was pure roots right?  Wouldn't erode more........

 

This was all done "professionally" by trail builders and the GORC community right? 

 

just level setting



#14 Kit

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

To be fair it's not just "cheaters".  

 

Take Matson for example, that trail has had numerous more technical harder sections removed due to what I understand to be "can't maintain due to erosion".  This was done by trail teams.

 

I miss the roots at Matson on the curve on the way back out challenge, the latest reroute at Matson sissified the trail as well through the open field.  The last climb out to the picnic table if going clockwise used to be a lot steeper, if going counter clockwise the route after the banked switchback is now more gradual......see a pattern?

 

Lost Valley lost the dreaded "hill after the wooden bridge" years back and has also recently lost a milder more technical feature after the wet creek crossing with latest reroute, again to remove "washed out" sections.

 

I get it, we don't want the trail washed out..but some of it was pure roots right?  Wouldn't erode more........

 

This was all done "professionally" by trail builders and the GORC community right? 

 

just level setting

I 100% agree with you, EVERY reroute GORC does is always super mellow / boring compared to the original line. Take for example the connector from Fossil Ridge to Buelah shelter, that used to be a challenging punchy climb and a bomber downhill, I have no idea why the powers that be decided that needed to be taken away. Now it's just a featureless dirt path, it seems like everything needs to be able to be ridden with training wheels now. But in this thread we are talking about individuals cutting very short reroutes. And our efforts to KEEP THINGS TECHNICAL!



#15 Kit

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:02 AM

people say they want technical but i've learned the riding public says hell no to that!

 

on the far point of beulah where the 3 horsemen rocks are near the climbing turn, I always had the trail designed to slot through the rocks. Nope. Ride around and a foot of leaves covering the technical feature. Some large rocks on the newest part of beulah have been pried out and kicked off the trail as well.

 

 

All the designers can do is try to make a fun and interesting trail. Then the public gets to decide where the trail goes. That much I've learned over the years. Probably only a matter of time before someone fills the berm in because it's too steep or the alt rock drop line has a makeshift pallet so  you can roll down it safely ;-)

 

I'mma keep tryin' though. I think the new stretch of beulah will test the strength and stamina of even the best trail tamers.

 

keep it flowduro,

matt

I find Beulah more enjoyable coming in from Beulah shelter and the angle just doesn't work trying to go through those rocks. Now we were talking about berms at the last GORC meeting and I think that would be the perfect place for a big 180* berm. It could be set back far enough to keep the horses off it and you could carry more speed into the next rocky section. Cass and I would definitely help and it seems like there is a good mass of clay right there.



#16 seamonkey

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:18 AM

so you think the reroute "fossil ridge" is just a dirt path? You do know that the trail along the loop road is still there for you to climb and descent at free will, right?! So you are saying that you prefer 300 feet of tech next to a road compared to the opportunity to build a mile long addition at Greensfelder?

 

A berm on that turn would be great and it could even accommodate the rocks with a slight alteration. We can berm the heck out of everything BUT it's a multi-use horse park and we haven't even had a wet enough winter to see what an 'average' winter + equestrians hoof damage would do to the berms. I like berms too but it's easy to get caught up building them and forget about maintaining them.

 

I keep saying / begging -- if there's enough people that want a flow trail WHY doesn't a group of solid, hard-working, visionary-types get together and form a facebook group, WRITE a solid proposal and then PRESENT it to a land agency.

 

It's easier to bag on the club that builds trails than to try and form a coalition with a singular vision of flow-oriented trails. I'd argue that STL could have another mtb club form to tackle the FLOW EQUATION. And trying to make "dedicated" flow trail work at Greensfelder seems nuts. It's the MOST HORSE PARK of open-to-horses parks. As soon as some hiking/biking land is available I say we SHOULD go FlowNuclear and build it out.

 

I think there's about 80 acres up by the airport that might be open for trail ideas but NO ONE WANTS TO DRIVE ANYWHERE (but they'll drive 4-6 hours to ride in Arkansas). And that's land that might be primed to build on given the right opportunity or pitch. Maybe Babler will allow something, I don't know.

 

"smooth paths" start smooth and will age with time. Look at Dogwood (that most people don't seem to ride anymore), it used to be chill dirt but now it's getting to be a rocky, root, slightly eroded trail.

 

Trails take time. Hell, Beulah is still considered BRAND NEW in trail years. Because it is. Same with Fossil Ridge. It's like, what, 2 years old or something?

 

Many people forget how trail building works so let's review:

1. The land manager suggests or asks for trail additions or changes

2. GORC gets to work

 

 

GORC was asked to get involved with Rock Hollow as a multi-use designed trail.

GORC was asked to reroute existing trails at Greensfelder that were highly eroded and unsustainable. I think we're doing a pretty good job based on the amount of cars jamming the parking lots.

GORC was asked by MDC to reroute a portion of Lost Valley where the gravel road was losing to the creek and also some of the existing singletrack. Not to mention MDC was closing the wooden bridge due to its deterioration and the trail on either side of the bridge. At first, they weren't sure about the reroute just below the bridge with the rocks and steep hillsides but it turned out ok and is pretty techy now.

GORC was asked to close two trails at SIUE due to the trails being outside of our initial lease agreement (a legal issue within SIUE's framework).

 

The club doesn't randomly go out and start changing up the trail. There's always a plan and the land agency is aware of the work. Modifying trails to be easier (tear out rocks or roots) or harder (add rocks or jumps) on your own personal time is not allowed by the land managers unless they approve it.

 

Our by-laws state we are a multi-use trail building club. We do not / can not advocate for a biking only trail but we are more than willing to build a biking or biking / hiking trail if the land manager states that it is their intended goal.

 

I don't mean to rant or sound angry but we are a volunteer organization working on a modest budget and I think we do a pretty good job without the millions in the bank.

 

Someone or some group prove me wrong and get to work and get some flow trail built in STL so I can go ride it.
Your new club can join IMBA and get some solid plans together to build at ...... <INSERT PUBLIC LAND SPACE NAME HERE >


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#17 Mark Grumke

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:51 AM

Thank You Mr Hayes. 



#18 Maven

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:19 AM

I second Mark.  Well said Mr. Hayes.  I sincerely appreciate all everyone does to provide all of us with a fantastic network of trails to enjoy. 



#19 Kit

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:08 PM

so you think the reroute "fossil ridge" is just a dirt path? You do know that the trail along the loop road is still there for you to climb and descent at free will, right?! So you are saying that you prefer 300 feet of tech next to a road compared to the opportunity to build a mile long addition at Greensfelder?

 

A berm on that turn would be great and it could even accommodate the rocks with a slight alteration. We can berm the heck out of everything BUT it's a multi-use horse park and we haven't even had a wet enough winter to see what an 'average' winter + equestrians hoof damage would do to the berms. I like berms too but it's easy to get caught up building them and forget about maintaining them.

 

I keep saying / begging -- if there's enough people that want a flow trail WHY doesn't a group of solid, hard-working, visionary-types get together and form a facebook group, WRITE a solid proposal and then PRESENT it to a land agency.

 

It's easier to bag on the club that builds trails than to try and form a coalition with a singular vision of flow-oriented trails. I'd argue that STL could have another mtb club form to tackle the FLOW EQUATION. And trying to make "dedicated" flow trail work at Greensfelder seems nuts. It's the MOST HORSE PARK of open-to-horses parks. As soon as some hiking/biking land is available I say we SHOULD go FlowNuclear and build it out.

 

I think there's about 80 acres up by the airport that might be open for trail ideas but NO ONE WANTS TO DRIVE ANYWHERE (but they'll drive 4-6 hours to ride in Arkansas). And that's land that might be primed to build on given the right opportunity or pitch. Maybe Babler will allow something, I don't know.

 

"smooth paths" start smooth and will age with time. Look at Dogwood (that most people don't seem to ride anymore), it used to be chill dirt but now it's getting to be a rocky, root, slightly eroded trail.

 

Trails take time. Hell, Beulah is still considered BRAND NEW in trail years. Because it is. Same with Fossil Ridge. It's like, what, 2 years old or something?

 

Many people forget how trail building works so let's review:

1. The land manager suggests or asks for trail additions or changes

2. GORC gets to work

 

 

GORC was asked to get involved with Rock Hollow as a multi-use designed trail.

GORC was asked to reroute existing trails at Greensfelder that were highly eroded and unsustainable. I think we're doing a pretty good job based on the amount of cars jamming the parking lots.

GORC was asked by MDC to reroute a portion of Lost Valley where the gravel road was losing to the creek and also some of the existing singletrack. Not to mention MDC was closing the wooden bridge due to its deterioration and the trail on either side of the bridge. At first, they weren't sure about the reroute just below the bridge with the rocks and steep hillsides but it turned out ok and is pretty techy now.

GORC was asked to close two trails at SIUE due to the trails being outside of our initial lease agreement (a legal issue within SIUE's framework).

 

The club doesn't randomly go out and start changing up the trail. There's always a plan and the land agency is aware of the work. Modifying trails to be easier (tear out rocks or roots) or harder (add rocks or jumps) on your own personal time is not allowed by the land managers unless they approve it.

 

Our by-laws state we are a multi-use trail building club. We do not / can not advocate for a biking only trail but we are more than willing to build a biking or biking / hiking trail if the land manager states that it is their intended goal.

 

I don't mean to rant or sound angry but we are a volunteer organization working on a modest budget and I think we do a pretty good job without the millions in the bank.

 

Someone or some group prove me wrong and get to work and get some flow trail built in STL so I can go ride it.
Your new club can join IMBA and get some solid plans together to build at ...... <INSERT PUBLIC LAND SPACE NAME HERE >

I was only referring to this short section, where large trees were felled to block the old section closer to the road. I'm sorry if I sound unapreciative, I'm not talking about the trails you guys are building out there, just some small stuff like this.

 

short%20reroute_2.png

 

We actually did go out to McDonnel Park, it looks like there is potential for some cool stuff and we are working on putting something together.



#20 The Krackheads

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 04:11 PM

Matt, Well done and I am sorry you had to expend the energy on a tangent topic-discussion not related to my original post.

Ride around's are different than trail re-routes and as Matt stated, Land managers approach GORC about reworking-rerouting trails, John Wayne and his band of Pulaski carrying outlaws aren't doing this work on their own.

Just level setting.
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Volunteers do not necessarily have the time; they just have the heart. ~Elizabeth Andrew

 

 

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